Moderator 6 posts Aug 04, 2004 2:12 PM	Well we just got our hands on David's new bullet. It looks very advanced--the sleekest secant ogive bullets we've seen. We weighed 10 bullets on a Pact digital scale 9 were 114.8, and one was 114.9. If this bullet flies as good as it looks, David's got a winner. Whether the 6mm BR can push this bullet fast enough remains an open issue; but it should work well in a Dasher or 6XC. Tubb's 6XC will push them at 3000 fps and they will stablize in a 1:8, although he prefers a 1:7.5. Here's the first pic out of the camera. Last Edited Moderator on 11-Oct-2004 6:43 PM
Asa Yam 1 post Aug 12, 2004 9:12 AM	Sierra has designed and built a 115 grain projectile. This will be sold exclusively through David Tubb's company, Superior Shooting Systems. Website is: http://www.zediker.com/tubb/sssmain.html
Moderator 11 posts Aug 14, 2004 12:57 PM	Thanks Asa, I put an item for it in the Bullet Comparator section with a link to the Zedicker site. Hopefully we can get some specs soon. BTW I managed to grab the pic of the Stolle F-class site before the thread was closed. See it in the Actions section. Guess Speedy got greedy.
LarryB 1 post Aug 15, 2004 6:38 PM	I shot next to Tubbs at the RMPM in June and picked up a couple of his 115's. They look like smaller 142gr. 6.5mm's. I did some interpilation using the form factor of the 142 and came up with a BC of 0.570 compared to the 142's 0.595. I think this is a more likely BC than 0.620. This may be too heavy for the standard 6BR, but just the ticket in the 6XC and some of the improved BR's. Larry
dmoran 4 posts Aug 26, 2004 9:17 AM	Wouldn't a 7" rate of twist be needed and desired for the 115's? I feel the 8"-Twist barrels that are common with 100 to 107gr bullet use, would not stablize the 115's. Especially in colder weather conditions! Happy Shooting Donovan
Moderator 13 posts Aug 26, 2004 4:12 PM	Donovan, you're right. We spoke to Gary Schneider who made Tubb's Camp Perry barrels. He made up a pair of special 7.5" twist barrels for Tubb to use with the 115gr bullets. 6mm BR shooters should keep in mind that Tubb is using his own 6XC cartridge which can hold a lot more powder than a standard 6BR case. A Dasher or BRX might do well with the 115gr bullet at 1000yds however. But I think it's unlikely most folks will go to the expense of a new barrel just to shoot this bullet. It needs an extended throat also. Last Edited Moderator on 26-Aug-2004 4:13 PM
GLN 1 post Sep 02, 2004 8:26 PM	What velocity is achived with the 115in the 6xc? Moderator: David Tubb tells us he's running them around 2950-3000 fps. He'll be providing a detailed report on the 6XC in a few weeks. STay tuned. Last Edited Moderator on 2-Sep-2004 10:31 PM
mikecr 2 posts Sep 10, 2004 3:38 PM	Why the hoo-ha over Sierra? Berger has already had a 115VLD out which is likely higher in BC than Sierra will be. Beger claimed is .597(probably .580) and recommends 7twist. I would be surprised if the Sierra is anywhere near .620. No way
Moderator 41 posts Sep 11, 2004 12:41 PM	We've talked to a few shooters who've tried the 115 Berger. None of them could get it set up to hold accuracy with the 107 Sierra MK or the 105s from Berger, Lapua, Hornady. That's not to say it can't be done, but we haven't heard any encouraging reports yet... The interest in the 115 Sierra is that it won Camp Perry and Tubb is shooting it with great consistency and accuracy from his 6XC cartridge. You may have to push out your throat however, and Tubb feels the 115 Sierra needs a 7.5" twist barrel to stabilize.
mikecr 3 posts Sep 11, 2004 8:03 PM	Nothing against Sierra, but Tubb could have won with Berger in the same rifle, right? And naturally, being longer, the same adjustments would be needed to accommodate the 115Berger. Unless there is something better about Sierra than Berger. Which is the nature of my probe.
mwmoose 1 post Sep 12, 2004 9:40 AM	I have a couple of simple questions: did any other competitor, outside of Tubb's associates, have access to this bullet, the 6mm 115gr, before Perry and why would Sierra, a class act, allow a single individual, better known as a monopoly, sell a bullet that is highly desired? I, obviously, don't have the facts, but I don't care for what I'm reading. It "appears" that sportsmanship has taken a back seat to sales and marketing. Please feel free to correct me. Last Edited mwmoose on 12-Sep-2004 10:21 AM
paul 9 posts Sep 18, 2004 12:44 PM	Here is a post on the 115 Sierra and twist rate, this is by DTubb A true 8 twist will adequately stabilize the 115 at 2200 fps at 500 feet above sea level. Since you will be shooting it at 2900fps+ it will be well stabilized. http://www.long-range.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=3127&hl= Has anybody tried them in 8inch twist barrel? Paul
DTubb Guest Sep 21, 2004 6:02 PM	I just read the posts about the 115 and thought I might clear up a few details. I have tried to get Berger 115's to shoot on several occasions - it just isnt going to happen (design problems). As far as marketing - Myself and a couple of skilled shooting friends did the testing on the 115's so why shouldnt I get a few of the benefits. Sierra wasnt that interested in making the bullet commercially until I ordered several hundred thousand of them. The 115's will stabilize out of 8 twist - all accuracy testing by sierra was out of an Hart 8 twist (8.2 twist normally) I feel the 115 will perform at it's best out of a 7.5 or 7 twist. Superior Shooting will be the OEM (only)source for this bullet. (Tel 806 323 9488) The 115's will be available for shipment in about 10 days. Pricing will be $18/100 - boxes of 500 only + shipping. Moly coated or non coated for the same price. DTubb
paul 12 posts Sep 22, 2004 12:56 AM	Thanks for taking the time to reply
NGHoule Guest Sep 22, 2004 5:03 AM	MWMoose, Its pretty simple.Dave would have never shot those scores with Burgers as neither him nor I could ever get them to shoot consistantly.Dave dumped about $50,000 out to get a few hundred thousand bullets out of his own pocket for a bullet that sierra had no interest in marketing.Dave also spent some 200+ hrs. developing that bullet.The first lot was rejected because of the design.Oh yeh,The ones for sale are the second lot,All the time and finances for the first lot were a total loss to Dave.He then sent a few out to various top shooters in other disciplines to get their unbiased fedback as he didn't want to market a bullet that wouldn't perform. As for Dave's sportsmanship,Another fact you probably don't know.He invited the person who won the HP championship and his 11yr. old son to his house for 5 days,took care of them,did testing on that very bullet together and trained together all out of kindness.He also supply that shooter with some 115s to develop loads and use at Perry.He then chambered the same persons barrel for him ans fedexed it to him 5 days before the nationals again out of kindness.Anyone worried about marketing over sportsmanship would never go to those lengths. Hope this corrects you.You can just invest your time,knowledge and money and develop your own bullet to market.I'm sure you will sell them . Norm Houle
Anonymous Guest Sep 24, 2004 10:34 AM	I think all the effort put into these is commendable. But what's the deal with Bergers? Technical problems? Why didn't they work for you? What is better about these Sierra's, than Bergers?
DANTEC Charter Member 21 posts Sep 24, 2004 12:07 PM	I have never see Berger 115 works in anything , perhaps too long for the caliber and with too long bullet that very difficult to impossible to get "in flight " usual ratio caliber/lenght is 5 cal to be sure to get no stabilization problem Sierra have perhaps /surely redesign a 115 gr with cal/lenght ratio able to be stable in flight ( without the need of a 1 in 1 barrel pitch ..) good shooting and enjoy to read reports on 115 Sierra/Tubbs DAN TEC
mwmoose 2 posts Sep 24, 2004 8:12 PM	DTubb Thanks for the clarification. I appreciate the answers. Good luck with the sales. DTubb To expand on my previous, 24Sep04, the 6mm 115 gr Tubb, as I now see it, is your bullet. It was your inspiration, design, development, test, evaluation and very importantly financial backing that resulted in the 6mm 115 gr Tubb. Referring to it as a Sierra is incorrect, in my estimation, and should be avoided to preclude confusion. I appreciate the fact that you are on the leading edge of High Power development and I look forward to your continued improvements in the sport. You deserve any financial reward that results from your efforts. Last Edited mwmoose on 25-Sep-2004 10:56 AM
DTubb Guest Sep 25, 2004 3:20 PM	ANONOMOUS, Why dont the 115 Bergers shoot? - because of jacket stress. Jacket stress (in 1000 psi or 1K) gives stress values which arent the same as gas pressure values. The 115 Sierra has a jacket stress value (maximum chamber pressure) of 60ksi. The 107 Sierra has a lower ksi at the same pressure levels (56ksi). The Berger 115 VLD exceeds 85ksi in same type pressure environment. This means that the Berger 115VLD is distorted in the barrel and/or while exiting - thats why they dont shoot very well. DTubb
DTubb 1 post Sep 25, 2004 3:35 PM	ANONYMOUS, A couple of other items. The Berger 115 didnt work very well in any twist I tried - 7/7.5/8. While the Sierra seems to like all of them. The jacket on the Sierra will stand 6mmx284 velocities - a 6x284 with a 115 Sierra at 3300 is a formidable wind drift projectile.DTubb
mikecr 8 posts Sep 25, 2004 6:56 PM	Thank you Dave From work, I'm "Anonymous". Also "Low profile", and sometimes "Missing"!
SP 1 post Sep 26, 2004 8:12 AM	DTubb, what is the measured BC of your new 115gr. bullet? Could you please explain more about jacket stress and how bullet design affects it. I am curious why the 7.5 twist if the 8 twist adequately stabilizes. It would seem that you would want only what is needed to stabilize. For example, the 8 twist was used alomst exclusively in the 6.5-284 until Mid Tompkins and others found that the 8.5 twist yielded less drift down range. Dr. Geoffrey Kolbe of Border Barrels has warned against using the Greenhill formula for vld projectiles as it predicts too fast of a twist rate. It would be nice and a great achievement to develop a formula based upon empirical data that really works to predict the optimal twist rate for a projectile/cartridge combination. You obviously have such empirical data. One other thing that I find curious,is that even though Berger and JLK bullets were both designed by Bill Davis, the JLKs seem to hold up better under pressure and velocity. Is there any possibility that the manufacturing processes of the Bergers lend towards bullet failure? Thanks, Scott Parker
DTubb Charter Member 2 posts Sep 27, 2004 9:02 PM	Scott, The BC of the 115 6mm bullet is approx 10 points less than the Sierra 6.5 142. A lot of people come up with a wide range of BC #'s for a given bullet so I feel it is best to leave it at that. As far as twist rate - I have had too slow a twist rate cost me the Nationals once and that was enough. I would rather err on the fast side of the twist rate. On the other hand my son Wyatt (3rd place in the long range aggregate) shot one of Gary Schneider's 8 twist barrels with the 115's in all the long range events (except the palma -308 only). This should certainly be a plausible enough showing by someone using an 8 twist barrel and the 115's. As far as the Berger 115 - the design profile isnt as good as the Sierra and their BC claims are hyped even though the overall look is certainly sleeker looking. DTubb Last Edited DTubb on 28-Sep-2004 5:51 PM
operators Guest Oct 03, 2004 6:54 PM	Look really close as the 6mm BR Dasher for the 115 VLD's
flatlander 6 posts Oct 09, 2004 12:48 PM	I played around with Berger's .224" 80gr. VLDs in my ARs, and never did get them to shoot very good at 600. Tried everything I could think of - jumping, jammed, Varget, N140, N540, RL15, different primers, Douglas & Kriegers - then finally bought a box of JLK 80s. The first load I tried with the JLKs shot better at 600 than the best I'd been able to manage with the Bergers. Now with Berger 6mm 105s, I've had excellent results at 600 out of my BR Improved at an avg. vel. of 3037fps with Varget. I'm no bullet designer or ballistician, so I won't attempt to claim to have an inside track on why this worked out the way it has - but I wanted to point it out, so I wouldn't come off sounding like a Berger basher. I wonder if part of Berger's problem(s) with the 115 could be due to the bullet's CG? Could it be that the 115's core extends too far forward, and so has a destabilizing effect? Look at Greg's Clinch River 6mm bullets - the 100gr. bullet has been getting rave reviews for its accuracy, and the only difference between it & his 106 is the length of the core. I'm not disputing David's theory, but am still curious. There's no doubt that Berger makes bullets that will shoot, so why haven't they figured out what's wrong with their 115 and fixed it?
SP 2 posts Oct 12, 2004 9:02 PM	Thanks for the post Flatlander. The one thing that I notice about JLK bullets is that they seem to have the slightest amount of a rebate at the beginning of the boat tail. I have wondered if this feature is responsible for the better downrange performance that many people experience with the JLKs vs. Bergers. I shoot The JLK 80 in my .223 at 600yds. However, with the original factory barrel, I shot Berger 75 grain bullets with fantastic results. Most people I have talked to have also had good if not great success with the Berger 105 gr. bullet. Again, Bill Davis designed both the Berger and JLK bullets, so why the finicky results. I was wanting a more in depth response from Tubb about how jacket stress is affected by design. I have a funny feeling that we won't get that. It may very well be proprietary information subject to intellectual property laws. Then again, maybe no one knows. There are informed people out there. Bill Niemi, Geoffrey Kolbe and others. Perhaps one of them will chime in and enlighten us. My guess is that with the Berger 115gr.the bearing length is too short for the bullet length. But that is just a guess.
SHIPPING DATE !!! Guest Oct 13, 2004 11:50 AM	WHEN WILL THEY START SHIPPING THE 115,S ??
JoeR 4 posts Nov 08, 2004 2:55 PM	6mm 115 SMKs I got 500 from a friend that ordered for us both, let another friend have 100, and weighed out the remaining 400 on Pact Dig. scales... Approx.5% weighed 114.8 gr.,25% weighed 114.9 gr., 60% weighed 115.0gr., 10% weighed 115.1 gr.(none off weight)... That seems very good to me.. Also the meplat looked better on them than the 107s, didn't have near as much sucker mouth look... Although I may true the meplat for serious matches.. I plan on trying them in an 8 twist 6x284 29" Hart barrel as soon as I get it broke in and the brass fireformed.. I might add, this was the worst brass (thickness variance) that I have gotten from Norma 6.5x284 brass, glad they had to be neck turned....Have a good .1"...Tater...

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